Jason Todd Meta - Tumblr Posts

I have truly never seen so much discourse for a hero/anti-hero that kills until I started liking jason todd. I have literally never seen so many people get hate for not condemning a fictional character who kills bad guys until now its shocking! and I mean that literally

maybe I’m the one missing something but there are plenty of heroes (not antiheroes but HEROES) who exist that choose a lethal method and people take that in stride? the only way I can make sense of this is that people are so attached to batman and his mythos; they literally imprint on him and his thinking ?? and now any slight against him or challenge against his righteousness is taken as if its a slight against them.

at the end of the day, to me, you can still support jason being lethal because the fictional characters hes killing aren’t actually dead. in this sense, specifically, I don’t see why real life morals should be applied to a comic world. he’s not killing out of bigotry and if he was, I would get the controversy! but if you can agree with brutally beating and invasions of privacy in the dcu because it’s “morally correct” within the universe, I can’t see an argument against jason’s methods being morally wrong as valid unless those views are applied to every aspect of batman comics. if we did that, then everyone who continued reading these comics would be getting the same treatment jason todd fans do. ​you cannot hold one character accountable to real life moral views and not the other(s)!

so i saw your post about jason todd and mcu characters, specifically deadpool, and i wanted to know your thoughts on how they break the fourth wall in different ways? like deadpool breaks the fourth wall for comedy, but still continues to play and follow the narrative, where as jason can kinda see the fourth wall in the fact that he knows gotham will never change and will never get better which is why he tries to control it instead, but fails bc he is a victim of the narrative.

Deadpool seeing the fourth wall is funny but for jason it just makes him so much more tragic, bc he wants to break out of the fourth wall and change his home so it's less hostile, but will never get it.

does this make sense?

hi! disclaimer: it is 2 am right now and I haven't actually engaged with a lot of deadpool content besides the movies and a few spideypool fanfics when I was going down the peter parker hole so take my speculations here with a grain of salt!

I think part of what differentiates them is definitely the narrative surrounding both of their stories, but also their placements on the hero to villain scale!

deadpool is aware of the fourth wall to the point that he can actually break it and speak to the audience whereas with jason it almost seems like he's only subconsciously aware of the fourth wall? kinda like he woke up from a deep coma with memories and knowledge implanted into his brain but there's no substantial proof of whether its anything more than just whatever he experienced in a dreamland far far away.

deadpool also literally gives almost zero shits about morals and part of that is because he can break the fourth wall. he's mostly a solo runner and he'll kill and do whatever he wants because he's aware that there are no real consequences that he, at least, can face! jason however, morphs his morals around the fact that he can, to a certain level, access the fourth wall. he knows that there's no saving gotham the way it currently is, but he still tries! and that's where being a victim to the narrative comes in. he chooses his alignment because of this fourth wall, but ultimately it does him no good when he's the only one who can, especially because in his world he is able to face real consequences! just like you said! he tries to control it but ultimately doesn't have the same character standing and environment deadpool does for it to create any change or development in the story.

jason's slamming himself against the fourth wall trying desperately to break free as if he was truman in the truman show. whereas deadpool just pops in and out whenever he desires, as if he was the characters in the truman show that are very aware of whats going on! it's torture from jason's standpoint and just another day at the job for deadpool!

I don't know whether this really added anything interesting to the conversation for you, but it definitely is something very fun and cool to explore!

Duke and Jason

The interesting thing about Duke’s relationship with Jason is that though he is a part of the family, he wasn’t really there for a lot of the divisive things that happened when Jason came back. Duke also never knew Jason beforehand or encountered the ghost of previous Jason; Dick, Babs and Bruce knew Jason before, Tim, Cass, Steph, and almost everyone else had to live with the ghost of Jason’s death haunting their moves and their relationships with Bruce, before Jason came back. Duke, meanwhile, joined after Jason’s return, and for him the status quo has always been what it is. To Jason, having someone who never thought of him as different than the Jason he is would be very important to him. Despite Duke’s knowledge of the past, sometimes distance makes the biggest difference - and Duke has the luxury of not having any emotional entanglements into who Jason was.

In addition, Duke comes at a time where Jason is able to openly admit he has brothers - and very much considers him to be one.

Artemis: Honestly? It was like kissing my brother. If I had one. Jason: Thank god! I was thinking the same thing. And I have four.

On Jason’s side, he seems to have decided to take a sort of mentorship role for Duke. The main instance is in the Roll Call short story in which Jason and Duke do a fight simulation on a very high level and Jason shares his hard-won wisdom.

Panel One -  Jason: Lesson number one: quips and retorts should only be used for distraction.

Panel Two- Jason: Find your own way. Because following in the Batman’s footsteps and being something that you’re not – is the fastest way to get killed

Panel Three- Jason: No. That’s a given. Lesson number four? No matter how you feel or what you think… you’re never alone

Jason makes sure to tell Duke that no matter what, he’s never alone. Jason wants Duke to know that no matter what, he will always have his back but it means more than that. Jason had long periods of time where he thought he was abandoned, and he lashed out as a result; hurting himself and others. A lot of the advice Jason gives Duke is not only useful things, but things Jason wished that he knew when he was younger. It seems to imply that Jason might see a bit of himself in Duke, and that he sees it as his responsibility to help Duke become something better.

Jason: – How many times are you planning to die, Duke?

Roll call also has a scene that drives me insane in which Jason recreates being beaten to death by the Joker in front of Duke. It’s pretty ambiguous whether or not this was on purpose. If it was on purpose, was it to show Duke what happened to him, was it to confront his fears on his own terms with his brother next to him? If it was by accident, did he brush it off to make Duke feel safe, or was he okay with Duke seeing him like that because he trusts Duke? Either way, Jason is comfortable enough around Duke to feel safe with him seeing one of his biggest traumas.

Joker (standing over Jason with a crowbar): I guess it’s over your dead body

And, after they finish the simulation (and Duke of course jumps right in to help Jason), Jason’s right back to joking with Duke.

Jason: Heads up Narrows, more clay bastards on the horizon. Batwoman and her crew usually warm up in the mud room on a level four practive setting.

Duke continues to help save Jason, notably in the Cheer’s story arc.

Jason: … Have your back (urban legends 6)

(Although, it equally drives me insane that despite Duke helping Jason and Bruce in this arc, he’s the only member of the family to not be in both Jason and Bruce’s dream worlds which drives a lot of questions - do they not want Duke to have been a vigilante and thus part of the family? Has Duke’s entrance into the family been too recent for them to add them to their fairy dream worlds? Is the author simply forgetting to mention Duke being there even though Duke is in the comic saving Jason and Bruce? My personal interpretation is because Cheer deals very much with Jason wanting the Joker dead, a dead joker means that Duke’s parents were never Jokerized, and thus Duke couldn’t be a part of the family in a dream world where Joker was dead.)

Their relationship with what the Joker did to them is another huge parallel between Duke and Jason. When the Joker killed Jason, and when Duke’s parents were Jokerized mark a difference in both of their lives - now divided in the before Joker touched their lives and after. It’s interesting to see how both Jason and Duke expected Batman to save them initially, and ended up needing to take their lives into their own hands, though there are huge differences in the way Jason fought for revenge, when Duke’s feelings were expended on fixing his parents and not towards the joker. Of course, the two situations are not completely comparable, but it is a similarity that impacts their lives.

Duke (to Batman): I know you can save them. My parents. All of them. Just like you always do.

They also have nicknames for each other! Jason calls Duke “Narrows”, which is a pretty outspoken acknowledgment of some of their similarities, being children from Gotham. 

Panel One - Jason: Narrows, meet crime alley. we do things differently. Find a functional outfit.

Panel Two - Duke: Need help? Jason: No, narrows, I don’t

It is important to note that Duke and Jason’s living situation are not identical, though they are similar - the Narrows is often neglected in Gotham.

Jim Gordon (about the Narrows) : Its Gotham’s poorest neighborhood. Made up of nearly a dozen diverse communities. Its been let down over and over by the mechanisms put in place in order to protect it. Under-protected. Under-represented. It’s been burned so many times you are practically feel the embers everywhere.

However, as opposed to Jason, Duke did have a stable family as a child, his mom was a social worker and his dad was a construction worker. After his parents were jokerized, Duke had to live in a series of foster homes, so both Jason and Duke (along with Dick) were impacted by the childcare system in Gotham.

In addition to Jason being comfortable sharing himself with Duke, Duke is able to get by with a lot of jokes about sensitive topics in Jason’s life.

Duke (about Batman): And he’s not my boss. Or the the target of my daddy issues.

Jason: you’re the latest robin. You’re supposed to… whatever. Brighten his dark side. All that crap. So he doesn’t propose to a villain and then run off and do… This! Duke: Jay, what? Dude, when you were robin you got dead then came back as a vigilante villain! And you’re telling me to “brighten his dark side”. (Batman 33 (2016))

Duke: Question. Didn’t you die already?

If that had been anyone else, I don’t think Jason would have brushed it aside that easily! Anyways, Duke and Jason have a super interesting relationship and I hope more people keep exploring it!

THE DC UNIVERSE MASTERLIST - BATFAMILY EDITION

TTHE BATFAMILY MASTERLIST

Started: 12/18/2020

Last Updated: 12/29/2022

This master list is a collection of analysis essays, headcanons, and comic book panels posted by my favorite bloggers. I did not write any of the posts linked below, and I do not own any pictures used. All credit goes to the original artists and bloggers who created this content. 

I created this master list intending to archive my favorite posts. I am sharing it because I believe this list is a perfect jumping-off point for new fans who want a comprehensive guide to understanding these characters.

I encourage you to interact with original bloggers and also comic canon. 

Please send me an ask or DM if you want to talk about comic books.

Thank you 

~ Haleigh 

Links

DC UNIVERSE MASTERLIST

META / ESSAYS

Batman (Bruce Wayne)

Bruce Wayne outside of Batman

Bruce firing Dick vs. Dick firing Tim

Bruce Wayne’s childhood + a short analysis his relationship with Alfred Pennyworth

Do Bruce and Selina truly love each other?

Does Bruce love Damian?

Did Bruce love Jason?

Is Bruce a good dad?

Is Bruce nice?

Jason was Bruce’s beloved son and DC’s writers are doing shit.

Tips for writing Bruce Wayne

Batgirl (Barbra Gordon)

Thoughts on Barbra’s independence and how it affects her relationship with Dick

Batgirl/Black Bat/Orphan (Casandra Cain)

Does Casandra know ASL?

How does Casandra process anger?

Huntress (Helena Bertinelli)

Helena’s relationship with Tim Drake

Nightwing (Dick Grayson)

Dick Grayson’s moral compass + how Bruce’s expectations shaped him

Dick Grayson’s strengths and weaknesses  

Dick Grayson’s guilt complex

Dick Grayson and Temper

Dick Grayson and fashion trends

Dick, you’re so spoiled (Discussing and his relationship with money)

Do Dick and Jason get along in comics?

DICK I’LL BE THERE FOR YOU GRAYSON

DICK GRAYSON AND ALFRED PENNYWORTH’S RELATIONSHIP META

Do Dick Grayson and Roy Harper have commitment issues?

Does Dick Grayson wear a metaphorical mask like Bruce Wayne does? 

Objectification or Empowerment: how writers express Dick Grayson’s sexuality

Superman and Dick Grayson’s first meeting

What is Dick Grayson’s ethnicity?

Robin (Damian Wayne)

Do you guys ever think about how much of a crappy life Damian has been having since Rebirth? Because I do.

Is Damian sexist?

Proof Damian has a heart p1

Things I Wish Writers Would Explore More with Damian

Red Hood (Jason Todd)

Jason’s time as Robin

Jason Todd’s less known skills appreciation

Jay and Dick are musicians? What do they play?

Jason Todd and the Ladies: Post-Resurrection

Recontextualizing the death of Filipe Garzonas

The Jason Todd Book Club (books that Jason has mentioned in canon)

What kind of father was Willis Todd?

Where did Jason get his Respect Women Juice?

Red Robin (Tim Drake)

Does Tim Drake conically suffer from depression?  

How did Tim Drake’s trauma affect him?

Is Tim Drake insecure?

Is Tim Drake sexist?

I wanna talk about Janet Drake

Tim Drake’s childhood

The beginning of Tim Drake’s career as Robin

Was Tim Drake born a genius?

Was Tim Drake the CEO of Wayne Enterprises? What was his job at W.E.? Did he like it?

Your Tim Drake coffee headcanon is whack

Spoiler (Stephanie Brown)

How did the batfam react to Stephanie’s death?

What is the canon surrounding Stephanie’s economic status?

The Signal (Duke Thomas)

Duke is not a boring character – Here are some of his achievements

Duke thomas isn’t the sane one! A guide by pepper

Who is Duke Thomas?

MORE INFO HERE!

CANON VS. FANON

Batfamily canon things that we should not let fall into obscurity

Characterization cheat sheet: the batfamily boys

The Batkids views on money

What are in your opinion the biggest difference between the comic and the fanon versions of the other Batfamily members?

THINGS YOU NEED TO KNOW

The history of the “Robin” title

The ages of the Batfamily kids according to Secret Files timelines

What are the Batkids legal names/adoption status?

HEADCANON

How would the Batfamily comfort someone who’s sad? 

Is Dick Grayson demisexual?

Is Dick Grayson a romantic?

Dick Grayson and Kids

Would Bruce Wayne be a good boyfriend?

What would Bruce be like if his parents never died?

What should happen after the Ric Grayson arc ends?

What hogwarts house would jason todd be in?

Where would you sort the Batfamily?

THE ROBIN’S RELATIONSHIPS WITH EACH OTHER

All Robins are great and they all bring something to the table

Advice on how to write Damian and Tim brother dynamic

Damian & Dick: analyzing their relationship

Another analysis of Dick and Damian’s relationship

Do you think Dick and Damian have a brotherly relationship?

The Batboys calling each other brother

Where does the “little wing” nickname come from?

COMIC PANELS

Batman (Bruce Wayne) 

Batman #42 by Tom King and Mikel Janin (Bruce and Selina get captured)

Batman being a Batdad to his Batprincess

Banana Muffin is Superman and Batman’s safeword

Batman & Robin Eternal #22 (Bruce being kind to Damian)

Detective Comics (2016-) #1017

Gotham Knights #11 (“I am a model of mental health”)

How Bruce deals with trauma

Injustice 2 #51 -”Have you tried turning it on an off again?”

“My favorite superhero is Superman” “…He’s my favorite, too”

Robin (Damian Wayne)

Deathstroke #5 - “Mirrors” (2016) (Damian taunting Deathstroke)

Damian talks a lot in front of his favorite people

Injustice 2 #8 (Proof Damian has a heart p2)

Robin Son of Batman 011 (Damian being done with Bruce and Talia)

The Shadow/Batman #3 (Ra’s al Ghul threatening Damian)

Super-Sons My Best Friend

Nightwing (Dick Grayson)

Everyone loves Dick Grayson

Dick beating up Bruce compilation

Dick is that type of brother…

Dick you whore

Dick imitating a crowbar

Unpublished pages of Nightwing #30

Red Hood (Jason Todd)

Batman: Urban Legends - “Cheer II” (2021)

Detective Comics (2016) #976 (Jason standing up to the Batfamily)

Robin 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular #1 - “More Time” (2020)

Red Hood and The Outlaws (2016) #52

Red Robin (Tim Drake)

Tim and Dick talking: A Compilation

There is a lot of Discourse ™ about how Jason’s days as Robin are portrayed now and whether or not he was always a Bad Kid and whether portraying him as such foreshadows Red Hood or undermines the whole tragedy of that story and yadda yadda. Having read Every Single Jason Appearance, I can tell you that he was definitely not originally an irredeemably bad kid, just a mildly-rascally-at-worst kid trying to survive on the streets.

However. There is one element of his post-Crisis personality that crops up a couple of times, most notably in the infamous Felipe Garzonas story, that I think shows a really consistent through-line with who he would eventually become, and that is his reaction to sexual assault. So I want to take a look at both stories -  first one that takes place over Batman #421-422, and then the Garzonas story almost immediately after in #424 - and see how they frame both sexual assault, and Jason’s reaction to it.

Content Warning: These stories are very explicitly (though not graphically) about sexual assault and serial killing and the complete incompetence/apathy of male authority figures (particularly the police) when it comes to doing anything about violence towards women, so I’m going to be talking about all of those things behind the cut. There is also a suicide in one of these issues and some casual racism.

Weiterlesen

I keep seeing posts about how Jason should have chara development that makes sense regarding his morals and stop killing because of that rather than because Bruce told him to stop and like - it's not like I disagree. Of course, that would be great. Of course I want him to be written his age by writers that like him and have development that makes sense and work with Bruce and Dick and evolve on his own as a person.

But the thing is.

A few weeks ago I saw a critique of His Dark Materials that was so absurdly daft it made me want to peel my skin off. For context, His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman is a children/young adult book set in fantasy worlds that doubles as a retelling of Paradise Lost in which Lucifer wins, and criticism of christianism is preponderant in it. (This will spoil a good part of book 1 of HDM btw). I'm far from a HDM fan, I saw a few episodes of the adaptation and read it once when I was ten and thought the characters and world was fun but the rhythm in the 2nd and 3rd books was off and I didn't like the ending, so like it was fun but I definitely not a re-read for me. But the point is, this critique clearly had a degree in not getting the fucking point, because his arguments against the books clearly stemmed from an inability to shift his viewpoint out of the christian framework (I promise this is still a Jason post). One of his most ludicrous argument was the lack of character depth in HDM. This is particularly silly because one of the main characters, Mrs Coulters, is one of the most interesting complex characters I've ever seen in fiction. Now Mrs Coulters is interesting because she is a bad guy. Like, tortures and kills children level of bad guy. She doesn't magically grow to sacrifice herself in the name of martyrdom to repent for her sins or something silly like that; but still, she sometimes does very good, helpful things for the characters, because the tension between her character is between her ambition (and her faith though that's more questionable) and her motherhood, as she truly loves and cares for her daughter, one of the protagonists, and wants a better, safer world for her. Now the critique claimed that there was no character depth because there was no concept of sin and no redemption arcs in the books- but those are utterly Christian concepts, so of course they wouldn't be endorsed by a book that challenges their validity. Just because Mrs Coulters doesn't have a redemption arc doesn't mean she isn't deep; and the fact that she does good things not out of morality but out of love is what makes her a fascinating character.

So, thinking about that asinine critique, I was suddenly struck with the realization that Jason is somehow similar to Mrs Coulters in that he is a very loving person who tends to put his personal connexions above everything else (of course, he doesn't experiment on and torture children, that's not what I'm saying). My point is, I don't think why we shouldn't have a Jason who evolves not moved by his morals (though he has them and they matter) but by his love. The point of Death in the Family is Jason wanted to be loved and have a family and trying to shield Sheila's body with his and telling her he loved her. The point of UTRH is Jason doing horrible things in the most theatrical, strategically planned mental breakdown as begging for proof of love because he can't reconcile being loved in a different way that he loves and because he can't understand someone putting their moral code over love. And as much as RHATO #25 fills me up with dread, I have to say I love Jason's behaviour in that final stint. "I am my father's son" holy shit what a line. Jason is Willis' son and because of his filial love, his loyalty demands he avenges him. Jason is Bruce's son and because of his filial love, his loyalty demands that he does not kill. Jason almost murders Willis' murderer with a blank bullet and then when Bruce beats hims halfway to death he doesn't defend himself, doesn't fight back (like, one punch but come on, we've seen him fight, he just gives up). That right there? Hate to say it with how questionable RHATO's Jason is in general, but that's peak characterization. The conflict is entirely about Jason's conception of love, family and worldview, and it's deep and interesting and has nothing to do with morality. I want Jason storylines that explore that. I want Jason to work with the batfam in stories that make sense, I want the writers to acknowledge him as a victim and trauma survivor and allow him to grow from there instead of demonizing his mental illness, I want him to stop killing out of love and I want him to allow himself to love in healthier ways and for the width of his love to spread exponentially and for that to affect his behaviour and worldview.

And that's not just because I like Mrs Coulters and dislike the idea of holier than though moral characters! The christic symbolism Jason is crystal clear (especially in Lost Days), but it's not just about Jason: Talia is associated with Mary (which makes sleeping with him that much more obviously incestuous and horrible and ooc), Joker is the Devil and Bruce, of course, is God (which begs such interesting questions about the Holy Spirit - Robin maybe? To explore at a later date). Now, everybody's experience with Christianity differs wildly, but the way I learnt it growing up in catholic culture was basically God being an Authority of Judgement and Law, strict and all about morality; while Jesus is about love, unconditional love, even and especially the sinners and the damned (and as for the devil Lucifer is a fallen angel who fell after losing to God, and Satan is the demonic incarnation of temptation ain't that interesting). So I would argue that by having Jason kill or not kill out of love for his family, Jason is already his own character with autonomous thought process, independent morals and original interesting values that are a breath of fresh air in the world of superhero which is all about moral codes. Additionally, I think it's interesting and full of potential (and hope) that that very thing is why Jason and Bruce are held in opposition so often when in christianism they are two sides of the same coin.

TLDR: Jason going through character development that doesn't involve an evolution of his moral code is a great idea and if executed properly should give us fascinating stories with one of the most interesting characters in the DC universe, I used to think he should get a sort of "redemption arc" after UTRH where he questions his moral code but now I feel like I'm stuck in the same Christian/superhero framework as the pedantic guy who didn't understand His Dark Materials and I refuse to agree with them about anything so now I'm a hardcore "love over morals" Jason girlie. Obviously I still think moral code development would be a good and interesting storyline and better than anything DC is giving us rn, but I think we could do even better without it.

(also Star Sapphire Jason ftw)

Idea: for his first time coming back to Crime Alley during his revenge plot, before establishing himself as a crime lord, Jason saves a kid. The kid asks him his name then informs him that it's ridiculous, and that a fairy tale name isn't scary at all so he should change it if he wants to scare the bad guys and also that his helmet isn't even a hood so it's stupid. Jason goes home in a daze, has a crisis, and brainstorms ideas.

Here is the list he comes up with, based on the fact he's a dramatic nerd, and ranked from my personal least favourite to top favourite.

The Creature : I feel like Jason would be the type of person to scream at people who call the Creature Frankenstein, but also argues that the real monster in the story is indeed Frankenstein; that name is thus a book accurate reference, while simultaneously highlighting and rubbing in Bruce's face that he created the villain by making himself his father and then abandoning him. My issue with this is that I associate the concept of cryptid vigilant creature with Cass so much giving the name to Jason feels wrong.

Rhapsody : Rhapsody of a Windy Night (by TS Eliot ofc) is THE poem I think of when I think about Jason in relation to Crime Alley, so this is a cool looking name cementing his identity as a crime lord/ vigilante as linked to this place. Unfortunately, most people would think either music themed villain or Queen reference and nobody would get the reference which would piss Jason off.

The Dead Poet: That idea is not mine, I unfortunately lost the post that suggested it so feel free to link it if you do. I absolutely love it, 100% nerd and batman villain, only reason it's low is I like the others more.

Antigonish: That's the title of a creepy poem/nursery rhyme by Mearns about a ghost haunting a house (yesterday upon the stairs/i saw a man who wasn't there...) very leaning in the creepy, undead, haunting the narrative vibe, and I think he'd fuck with the aesthetic so much, I think he'd wage psychological warfare against Batman with references to Jason's death.

Prometheus: A classic, the curse of non consensual immortality while also being a protector and enlightener of the people, defying the authority and saying I will break your rule in the name of what I think matters more. I think he'd like the way it lets him simultaneously say fuck you to Bruce and keep in mind who he's supposed to protect. Yes, I know Prometheus is a pre existing villain and I hate him, let's just ignore that.

Chrysothemis: this one is such a smartass reference he's such a little shit I think he'd love it. A classic myth from the trojan war is Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter Iphigenia to Artemis in order to be able to go on his mission (wage war against Troy), and when he comes back from Troy, Clytemnestra kills him in revenge, and then the family hunts eachother for sports (see the Oresteia). In Sophocles's Electra, Chrysothemis is the name of the daughter of Clytemnestra who, unlike Electra, doesn't condemn/ protest against their mother for killing Agamemnon to avenge Iphigenia. I think it's particularly funny because Chrysothemis literally means "golden law". Maybe not the most badass sounding but god would it be so funny.

Lightbearer : (the title of Lucifer). Again, maybe not the most badass but Jason is a nerd and he'd fuck with it. "But isn't Jason the christic equivalent of the Bruce/Jason/Joker trinity?" I hear you ask and the answer is yes, but on a meta level, this is what the reader is allowed to see. Jason? He's read Paradise Lost and agrees Satan/Lucifer was right, projected Bruce on God, and made it his whole personality. I think Lightbearer!Jason would quote Paradise Lost/make references to it all the time during their arguments, denouncing Batman's abandonment of Crime Alley and say "I'd rather rule in hell than serve in heaven", tell him that he has no obligation to play by his rules because "just because you were here first doesn't make you the rightful ruler of this city". This also goes well with my hcs about Crime Alley being a little fucked up and loving their local crime lord/vigilant, with graffitis and nicknames treating him like the Alley's Angel/guardian angel but in a fucked up, fallen angel way, like that's our patron saint and he's made of the same shit that we are, he's not holier-than-though cause he's not holy but he's ours.

Anyway feel free to share which ones you prefer and add ideas!!!

No no omg I didn't even think about the vote

I know there's always this stoner at 4 am that's like what if we were characters in a book but imagine what if we were like characters in dc comics I can't get over how much power we have over these characters I knew fan feedback influenced the writing and art is created by the interaction between the spectator and the artwork and beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that crap but the idea that we killed that boy, someone decided to bring him back in such a traumatic way that he's been trying to die ever since and our perception and conception of him is what is keeping him alive against the laws of the universe I need a drink but I'm working tomorrow morning what the hell

You ever think about how some dc characters have superpowers but like, on a meta level?

Like, many vigilantes but especially Bruce with all the hardcore beatings he does, or Tim with the "blowing up bases after having sent them a warning to evacuate" should have killed someone on accident but they didn't. Because the narrative didn't want them to, because this is a Batman or Red Robin comics so you have to suspend your disbelief and accept that these consequences didn't happen, and by doing so you give them the power to inflict lethal harm and yet not kill, and it's the power that you, the reader, give Batman by virtue of being Batman.

Like, Jason is immortal on a meta level, not because he died and came back but because he keeps getting into especially deadly situations and getting out without an explanation and the comics just expect you to accept that yes, the exploding meteorite is deadly enough to apparently (squints eyes) kill Selina but Jason survived it virtually unscratched despite not being enhanced and because we are expected to accept that, we are expected to accept Jason could survive about anything, because he is the character that he is in a comic. Thinking of how the panel of Jason dying came out and half of the community on tumblr was rolling their eyes like it's okay, he'll come back, and they were right. (There was an explanation for that one but still they said "oh no this character can't perma die that's just who he is" and it was right. To be fair not many dc characters are granted the honour of a perma death these days)

There are probably so many examples that I'm not thinking of right now and to be clear this isn't a critique or anything, I just think it's very funny that in a universe that calls their supers "meta humans", the humans that don't have superpowers are granted impossible abilities through suspension of disbelief and the ability of the reader to take in account the role of the narrative in their interpretation of the character's actions and their consequences. It's ironic, and it's punny, and I really really hope it's a least a little on purpose.

I'm always thinking about Jason because fixation so my judgement is biaised because every song I listen to makes me think about at least one of my Jasons, but here are some songs though were definitely written for and about canon Jason Todd, and I will take no criticism (but you are definitely welcome to add your own songs):

-Take me To War, by The Crane Wives

>"But I keep snapping at Goliath hands with all of my tiny might"/ "All of the fire I swallowed, all of the sparks that went down in my guts, I am always burning out"/ "I'll be the sweetest thing to ever scare you"

The Robin -> Red Hood transition is so seamless

-Little Soldiers by the Crane Wives

> "On the broken back of all the words we spared, Like little soldiers in the trenches; It was a march we made towards ruin and despair, But we held hands all the while"

I always rant about how how Jason's character and story is centered around love, this is the song that plays in my head while I'm yapping

-Blue Lips by Regina Spektor

> "He took a step but then felt tired, He said I'll rest a little while; but when he tried to walk again, he wasn't a child"

If you ever wanna be sad about Jason's resurrection, catatonia and stolen childhood, this is the song to listen to

-The Horrors and The Wild by The Amazing Devil

"Think of all the horrors that I promised I'd bring, I promise they'll sing of every Time you passed your fingers through my hair and called me child, Witness me old man I am the Wild"

> If Under The Red Hood has one song it's this one

-The Old Witch Sleep and The Good Man Grace by The Amazing Devil

"There's a fire burning/And I'm learning to be/So much more than my tiredness/ So much more than that old witch sleep wishes/ She kisses my eyelids, and I/Breathe"

> If Red Hood: Lost Days (minus the gross bits) has one song it's this one

-Elsa's song by The Amazing Devil

>"And you'll throw some sage and lillies/ And roses where I'll rot/ Of all the flowers you picked/I knew you would forget/ Forget-me-nots"

idk who Elsa is this is about how Jason was grieved but he wasn't remembered

(Yeah I'm pretty convinced that at least either Madeline Hyland or Joey Batey read Under the Red Hood so many of their songs fit so well I restrained myself to three but there are so many)

-A Burning Hill by Mitski

>"I'm tired of wanting more, I think I'm finally worn/ For you have a way of promising things/ And I've been a forest fire"

Jason admitting loss and giving up on begging Bruce is something that can be so personal actually

-Heaven Knows by The Pretty Reckless

>"Now you're on your knees with your head hung low/ Big Man tell you where to go/ Tell them it's good, tell them okay/Don't do a goddamn thing they say"

Crime Alley united!!! Also, "tell the big guy I said hello" :))) (the God/Batman amalgam in Death in the Family is such an incredible one-liner and works so well for Jason omg)

-For the Departed by Shayfer James

>"Now I must finished what I started/I'll write a symphony for the departed/And I have no time for second chances/ So I survive on bourbon blood and backward glances"

The amount of angst, dramatics and intense devotion to his cause at the cost of his life, the literature references, everything about this song? Jason at his angstiest for sure

-Goodbye by Bo Burnham

> "If I wake up in a house that's full of smoke I'll panic/So call me up and tell me a joke/ When I'm fully irrelevant and totally broken dammit/ Call me up and tell me a joke /Oh shit/ You're really joking at a time like this"

exploded warehouse parallel aside, this song feels like not being able to heal because you're not capable of asking for what you really need, wanting to come back but feeling like you aren't allowed to because it would ruin you or the you that was shaped by other's perception of you and most importantly, begging to matter and to have mattered. So. Jason.

I once had a friend who said "of course I trust the people I love, how could you love someone if you didn't trust them? Of course I trust you, otherwise I couldn't love you." I didn't know how to tell her that to me, love had almost always hurt, that I had grown so used to betrayal that I had trained my ears to twist promises into truths so this hope wouldn't hurt when they ripped out of my chest. I didn't have to say much, I think, she saw me flinch at the slightest noise, and knew I didn't understand, and so I hope she never does.

I do not love in spite of all this rage. I rage because I love, and I want to know a love that doesn't hurt, I want the knife in my back to burn with pain instead of this dull ache of pulling my hair up and offering my shoulder blades again, again, while I dig my fist in the ground to punish something else. There is so much love in me and it should make you scared. It terrifies me. Like a raptor dying with its love clutched into its bent talon, I would rather die than let go of the hand pulling at my hair. I want to learn to let go. I want to learn to love less. I want a promise I can believe but words have been ruined for me.

Now all I do is scream.

I think one of my favourite arguments in that favour is that at some point Lucifer implies that we don't know God really did create everything, maybe he was just there first and called it all his, and I can see that in relation to Bruce calling Gotham his city when he's up there in his mansion in Bristol.

But I also think he makes a really good Adam!

And a really good failed Lucifer: came back, wrecked havoc on Bruce's status quo, has read Paradise Lost, for a once he almost thought he could do this, but in the end he can't kill Batman he can't kill Joker and he can't get Batman to kill Joker and he fails at being Lucifer, not because he can't kill Joker, but because it becomes apparent reading what happens before and after, his hatred for Bruce isn't immortal, but his love is. And that's sad, because Lucifer holds onto his hatred as a sign that all is not lost because at least he has that, at least he has his hatred and revenge but if the hatred dies, if the fury is left and the betrayal remains then what does he have? "Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" but current Jason isn't reigning anywhere, is he? It's so tragic I love him so much failed Lucifer Jason he wears a bat on his chest and a muzzle on his face and he tried so, so hard

(I'm not even touching the Cain and Abel themes holy shit that's a whole other baby)

Btw you don't need christian Jason Todd to have self-aware christian imagery Jason Todd, he just needs to have read Paradise Lost

Jason decided Sheila was also his mom, went to her even if she had abandoned her, decided to help her after finding out she was a criminal, and when she betrayed him in the worse way possible, spent precious time untying her instead or intenting to escape, then covered her body from the blast and said "i love you mom". Family love to Jason is sacrifice, it's devotion, it's relentless beyond any slight, and it overcomes any taboo of life and death. Love and suffering and loss are always, always intertwined for Jason.

So how could Bruce have loved him if there's isn't any blood?

What you mean by" willis todds love for jason is the reason bruce failed him" ?

Sorry ive seen your post and I agree with everything but this just kinda suprise me, not hating, just curiuos

HELLO! so this is a take that is based on pre-new 52 todds, before they were simplified to the one dimensional (and classist) personalities they're known for now. neither of them were shown to be abusive or willfully negligent, but rather found themselves in bad situations out of their control and died, leaving jason to fend for himself.

in the most simplest way what i mean is willis todds self sacrificing actions of turning to crime in order to provide for jason and catherine is the key defining part of jasons life and why he views bruce's love for him as 'not enough'.

(of course, the actual proof of this is like. one single panel and its not even said by jason. however i think it is something that can be found in jasons character through other, less obvious situations.)

in jasons initial (public) return to gotham and that long and convoluted plan to mess around with batman psychology to get the two of them and the joker in the same place, it all seems like a well planned out revenge story until the final conversation:

Batman: Under the Red Hood

it always stood out to me, not just because of how absolutely heart wrenching the entire moment is (definitely read utrh if you haven't, at least once), but because it really gives you an insight into what love and loving someone means to jason.

to him it's an all encompassing responsibility. this idea that love is something that you need to be able to prove by the quantitive value of what you'll sacrifice for it. in this case, jason is saying i love you" in the way he truly believes gets across how much he means it; i would kill the person who hurt you.

whenever i read this part of utrh, another situation immediately pops into my mind. and that's when jason found out two-face had killed willis todd.

Batman #411

upon finding out two-face had killed willis, jason goes on a brief grief filled rampage, swearing he'll kill him for what he did. it's important to note that up until now, jason had assumed willis was still in prison, only to find out he was actually murdered.

again, it's this idea that love is the extremes you'll go to for family. jason was well aware of willis' less than legal means to make money, and even bruce makes a mention of it in.

Batman: A death in the family

i imagine, like a lot of what fuels jason to fight crime now, guilt is a major deciding factor in a lot of his choices. it's this guilt that he feels upon hearing about willis' death that makes him take it out on two-face. it's even guilt that plays a huge factor even in new 52 stories (such as Cheer).

so when he returns to gotham, or even before that, just hearing about what bruce had done following his death (locking the joker up instead of killing him, taking in tim as his robin) were, to him, clear evidence that he did not love jason in any way that mattered. that bruce did not love jason as much as jason loved him.

because loving him means giving up your morals. loving him means sacrificing your health and your time and your safety.

but bruce didn't do any of that in a way jason could see.

i imagine to someone like jason, who lost every parental figure in some capacity, whether it be to illness or crime or something else entirely, the evident disregard for him was as painful as any rejection could have been.

a lot of how jason feels and acts can be seen in much more interesting ways if we all look at him for he is; an unreliable narrator. he is missing huge chunks of story, especially when it comes to bruce, and has no choice but to act irrationally on the little truth he does know.

of course we the readers, and some other characters, know just how hard jasons death was for bruce. how destructively he mourned for his son.

but again, the surface level proof of it is not enough for jason, who's entire life has been love through sacrifice. but now, it's a sacrifice bruce can not ever give him.

Batman: Under the Red Hood

Okay. SO

> the thing about bpd (and also, in a different way, bipolar) is that some of the criteria technically could account for the inconstancies mentioned in Jason's writing as a character. Like, I don't often go down that road because a lot of content I call ooc I do it not because he's a villain but because it's villanizing mental illness (there's a fine line in writing a good villain/antihero in mental illness and btfc uses this line like a noose around its characters' neck) but the "Identity Disturbance: Markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self" criteria could be one more argument towards bpd jason (to me it feels like a copout but that's because I spend waaay too much time analysing psychopathology in fiction). But aside from that, I'd say it's because regardless of what specific readers consider canon or not for Jason the reference for Red Hood!Jason analysis seems (from what I've seen ) communely accepted as Under the Red Hood, which is rich in, let's put it that way, signs and symptoms and explorative paths for diagnostic hypothesis. So maybe that's why!

> personally I don't see him as autistic (that's about the only part of me I don't connect with him lol), mostly because the things that I would read as autism I attribute to the bpd and general trauma, but it's complicated, the correlations between trauma and autism are complicated (there was this awesome 2022 article about it that described it I'll add it if I find it) so basically I don't see it but also I totally get it for the people who do. Also always love to see it in AUs!

> "arfid but not severe enough to be called a disorder" as an alternative: have you considered alimentary orality disorders? (Also when I do hc him with ARFID, I think about the texture of the dirt flooding his grave and choking him while he's clawing his way up)

> I don't know enough about DID to have an opinion on the matter because my country kinda just decided it didn't exist and if it does it's like an american thing and some of my teachers don't agree but since there's no consensus they just don't talk about it. We're like told "oh yeah don't worry about that it's a thing it probably won't be a concern to you one way or another." So like. Yikes. (I gotta do all the research myself and don't have time with all the other college stuff so I just don't know and it sucks uuurgh)

> finally when it comes to bipolar (I'd go with bipolar ii btw) I'm very uncertain. On one hand I can see it, on the other hand I feel like the bpd could be sufficient explanation for the symptoms and if he had bipolar it would certainly be an atypical form because there's no elation of the mood (like I don't see any instance of euphori, maybe I'm missing Jason canon that shows that though) and while you can technically diagnose bipolar ii without elation of the mood we're heavily discouraged from considering bipolar disorders in first instance. There's also the fact there's a not unfrequent comorbidity between bpd and bipolar. Irl in his case, I would make the diagnostic hypothesis of bpd, the alternative hypothesis bipolar and note that the psychiatrist doing the evaluation should take in account the possibility of comorbidity.

(obviously that's just my analysis and hc, exclusively from the categorial approach, everyone can have their own, especially if you have a disorder and resonate with the character in that regard that's totally valid i just wanted to share those thoughts)

Jason Todd has BFRBs. Send tweet

@timstolejasonscorpseagain *deep sigh*

I have a lot of thoughts about Jason, philosophy and his development, unfortunately those thoughts are very convoluted and I have yet to reach a conclusion, mostly because I'm not that cultured and have yet to find the time to do all the philosophy reading to solidify my positions or question my doubts, which I why I tend to avoid talking about it until I'm confident I won't say something so baffling in its stupidity it will change someone's stance on a completely unrelated subject of out sheer disdain. With that being said, and thanks to the lovely vulgarisation function of our friend wikipedia, I am now fascinated with the idea of Jason reading Kierkegaard and his stance on the "leap of faith".

Now my starting point position on Jason's character in relation to love and as christic symbolism is detailed in this post down there, but the gist of it is that heroes/antiheroes don't have to be motivated by a moral code but can be motivated by love, and that's what makes Jason my favourite comics character, that his development and motivation are based on love, and that we have a nice parallel between Bruce as The Father, the Law, the Lord with a moral code that cannot yield, VS Jason as The Son, Jesus, an approach to christianity based on love (though of course Jason's lost days/utrh arc is a dark retelling, a "dark jesus" if you will).

Note that the interesting thing about philosophy is that not everybody agrees you should base your behaviour on an unyielding code of conduct, things you mustn't do because they are inherently bad: we have deontology, virtue ethics, utilitarism and other types of consequentialism, but also ethics (as understood by Levinas), agape (as per Amélie Nothomb), a lot of shit I'm not smart enough to understand and probably a lot of other stuff I've never heard about because, again, I haven't done my reading. And I wanna see more superheroes living through these stances, and not just deontology or utilitarianism, and I think Jason's stance on love could lead to a fascinating development in that direction.

Now, taking a deep breath,a chill pill and thinking about Jason as a he is right now, as a character, and whether he would have this or that book on his bookshelf. About Kierkegaard's "leap of faith*, Wikipedia tells us:

People who have actually opened a book written by Kierkegaard know more than on the matter so feel free to correct me on the matter but I would say yes, @timstolejasonscorpseagain , to answer your question I think he would love reading Kierkegaard. I'll also highlight that no, despite the theology and judeo-christian culture in which those theories are soaked, I don't hc Jason as christian, and I think the most important part of the leap of faith in regards to Jason is how it relates to love rather than God. However, we can't ignore that context, and that's one of the biggest limits of my analysis of Jason's philosophy, the fact that I was so deeply soaked in it myself growing up that I'm still widely ignorant of the other options and outlooks. One day I'll make a better, more developed post about the potential of Jason's ethics switching from utilitarism to platonic love aka agape (from Compte-Sponsville but mostly Amélie Nothomb), how fascinating it is that one of Kierkegaard's biggest critic is Levinas because of Levinas' ethics vs "christian love" in relation to Cass vs Jason and the potential of reconciliation between the two that Amelie Nothomb suggests, but for now all you get is this very narrow outline. Hope that at least answers the question, and if anyone has suggestions of authors I can read and look up to narrow that view, feel free to share them if you want!

Literature nerd Jason this and that, but no one says that he would become obsessed with the book where the narrator is dead and is reminiscing about his life and whose epigraph is a dedication (of the book) to the worm who first gnawed on the cold flesh of his corpse 💀

What I personally love is Jason’s fight or flight being*flight* most times. Back of my mind is wallpapered will all the times Jason just gtfo. But it is a red hood response more than a jaybin one

Yeah I barely even thought about flight but it makes sense... When I say "stress response is context dependent" the important part is that not one person has one stress response, even without going through major changes or learning anything. I'm not intense enough to do exhaustive descriptive statistics about which one is more frequent, so I'm gonna believe you, that's also very interesting!! And it makes sense with Jason's background as a street urchin

Tbf (and I say this as someone who likes Jason as a member of the batfam and wishes for a reconciled batfam) the sanest thing for Jason's mental health right now would be to gtfo. That's why the outlaws as a concept (aka when not written by Scott Lobdell) make sense, Jason in a group of traumatized characters going on adventures away from the places where they were hurt and getting to be happy (even if not all the time) and being weird at intimacy makes so much sense, c'mon. With that being said, Gotham is Jason's home, and also if that kid called Sheila "mom" while he shielded that mf's body with his own to try and save her he's not gonna stop considering the bats his family anytime soon so, no gtfo too far from the path for Jason I guess.